Stephen Sarro Interview from Tantrum of the Muse, Unteachers
You do a lot of stuff!! Can you please give a brief run down of your projects, past, present, and future?
Certainly. I had a few demo cassettes recorded with a punk hardcore band back in the mid 90's called "Ruckus" most of which is terrible. I did a pretty decent band in 1997 called Klradio, which was kinda noise rock DC hardcore, we did a rough demo Ep. Of what you have heard, I wrote 2 albums with Tantrum Of The Muse, The Heart Is A Two Headed Sperm in 1998, and Modernmu$ick(2000)! in 2000. Around 2002, I recorded an improvisational avant garde type of album called Sympathy For The Living. TOTM released a live EP in 2001 also, called The Downtrodden & The Sidhe. Fast forward to 2010, I played bass and helped write an EP with a band called Savage Animal Rhythms. In 2012 I released the first recording with Unteachers: 2 songs on a split 7" with Grace And Thieves. In 2014 Unteachers released a full length album called, A Human Comedy.
Other than my own releases, i am also found singing and making a bunch of noise on some Blaster The Rocketman and Huntington songs.
Future? Unteachers is going to release some new music soon. Probably singles here and there. Albums are too hard to pull off when you have little time to connect with each other and of course nobody is supporting us financially, so i think we will record songs in smaller doses. I demoed some songs and they are awesome. My new solo album is done, and that is going to be out very soon. That is first.
So your new solo album is finished right? What's it called and when is it coming out?
Yes, it is recorded, getting mastered, and will be out by Halloween, or at least that is my goal. I think we can do it. The album is going to be available on CD and digital. The album is titled The Spirit Shrill
The album is one of the purest things I ever made. It is honest, and uncomfortable. It deals with spiritual and mental illness. Charismatic movement, cults, that sort of thing. That is, for me, the inspiration for it. I just have a weird fascination with the subject matter, and i think its really scary and harmful stuff, and i think i have been clear with this album about that. I also think the album works as just a surreal musical landscape, and really does not have to be so specific to what it means to me. I think different people will get different things out of it.
How did you record the album?
I know almost nothing about recording, mixing, mic placement, all of that. I wanted to make something all on my own and see how far I could take it, and how well it would sound. In a lot of ways it is very minimalistic, so the guitars, drums, pianos, are just simple USB mics placed in certain areas and played out live, or directly connected to Garage Band on Mac. You know something? It sounds really great to me, for the minimal amount of knowledge and gear I used. I am proud of myself. If i was trying to record a straight up metal record, I think I would have a lot more trouble, but because of the type of album it is, which has a lot of samples, droning noise, manipulated sounds, etc, that helped me.
Any special guests or is it 100 percent Stephen Sarro?
My 10 month old son is the only other person on the album. I wrote, recorded, and performed pretty much everything, except for a few free domain sounds that i found and manipulated, and of course, the samples of various people saying crazy shit. When i was tracking a song, i had to do some hideous laughter, and i was holding him at the time because that's how dads make records these days DIY style. He did not like my laughter, and he started screaming, and i just kept it in. I figured he would get a kick out of it later in life.
You said the album is about your disdain for the charismatic Christian movement, right? I'm wondering, should we expect it to be blatant like the song "Screw the Christian Industry" or is it more subtle?
"Screw The Chri$tian Indu$try" was a teen angst type of thing. Great tune musically, but that title is terrible. This album is much less subtle. Maybe I am too close to it, but it certainly seems like a sledgehammer over the head in terms of what I was thinking about and saying.
What style are the songs? I heard a rough version of the first track I believe, and it was way different than I was expecting! Some world music influences and noisy drone aspects if I remember correctly?
Yeah, i never want to compare this and i think i can confidently say its not something you can really compare to anything specific. That said, it certainly reminds me of some things. I was thinking some of the more recent Scott Walker albums. Swans “soundtracks for the blind” kinda came to mind a bit. There are a lot of droning and hypnotic type of things happening. When i did the Tourist Trap Podcast, i created some really cool compositions and felt that nobody was going to hear them, so i brought some of those compositions into this album, and built onto them a lot. I am kind of hoping if people buy it, that they remain patient and let it wash over them and that they feel something real with it. It is the only time i ever recorded an album where i actually surprised myself. There is a track on here called “Scarred For Life” where it just came together, and it was so bat shit crazy and nothing like I ever did. So completely vulnerable and heavy. I literally sat back and said “whoa… that's intense” which i never do about my own music. I think a lot of that is because normally most of my songs are sitting and well rehearsed in my head, i am so familiar with them that they only surprise me by being fully realized in front of me after hearing them as a thought for so long. With this album, none of that happened. I was making it on the spot, and it became what it was in the moment, and so i was able to hear it like you will hear it, in some ways. Anyway, i would say its definitely an oppressive angry droning nightmare of an album. I promise the next album will be catchier, hahaha.
Why do you dislike the charismatic Christian movement?
Frankly, because i think its heresy. I think its superficial, and ego driven. Focuses on self improvement, prosperity, etc. It was forced into the evangelical church, look into Its origins, its scary.
I hate it because it leads to brokenness. It sets us up for failure. It paints a picture of ourselves as more important than we are, and it takes so much away from the big picture of what our purpose is, in terms of glorifying God through our suffering, and the fall etc. It poisons people’s perception, it scares people. It stirs up all sorts of red flags as God discerns things. It breeds foolishness, because people stand tall and proclaim to know what God will do or wants to do, and its really just bullshit. It breeds narcissism because it creates this idea that we are capable to tap into some type of God given power, or to act as an extension of disciples of Christ’s earthly ministry. Man, i could go on and on. Ultimately, its just not true biblical sound doctrine. Its a death trap of a person’s understanding of the real God of scripture. Yeah, i am saying this, and people may read that and say “how dare you” or “You have no idea what you are saying” and i frankly don’t care. I have read books, and i can recommend books, certainly John MacArther’s Charismatic Chaos, and Strange Fire books, which were a great validation of what God has discerned for me. But, as Charismatics love to focus on… experience… feeling… so i will use that language. I was a part of that stuff early on, and it broke me and made me feel like i was not good enough and a lot of people i know can say the same thing, and i will gladly spend the rest of my life keeping people away from that dead end. Its just a turn off, it makes me absolutely sick. When i voiced how i felt about it, i was told that it was a problem of faith. It is no surprise to me that a destructive, self serving, sensational, entertaining and mystical kind of practice would be attractive to a lot of people. That makes a lot of sense because its like listening to shitty music. American Idol has higher numbers of people listening to shit music, rather than people who are well versed in a lot of great music that nobody will ever hear. Large numbers of people love garbage. Nickelback is a huge multi million dollar band. Church attraction goes the same way. Narrow is the road.
Let me be clear though, i do believe in the gifts of the Holy spirit. I just think that they do not resemble what the Charismatics think they resemble. Does God heal? Of course he does. Does God do miraculous things? Of course he does. Does God intervene in a physical way to affect people’s lives? Of course he does. But God does not resurrect human bodies, grow limbs back, split the oceans in half. Can he do it? Damn right God can do it, God can do anything, and i have faith that God can and will do whatever God wants to do. We have millions of smart phones, and all of the technology to connect what the Charismatic folks claim is happening to an audience of wondering people, and we see nothing. I can sit on YouTube for hours searching for a genuine miracle and I never ever see it. It's like waiting for Bigfoot and Loch Ness to finally show up. It's like, “You show me people, you show it to me, because I know God can do it, and you won’t show it to me because it is not there.”
What are some of your favorite tracks on the new solo album?
Well, since its a 55 minute single track, I love track 1. Hahaha.
Where can people go to get the new album?
For now, they can just order it from Tourist Trap Media, which is basically just me. Its the label that i release music under. Visit www.touristtrapmedia.bandcamp.
Do you have any pets?
No pets. Just kids. I had a cat named Kinky, she got sick and died quite dramatically in my arms without notice. It was 2 weeks before my daughter Alice was born. I buried her in the garden on our farm. Alice and I have talked about “our cats” she thinks that the farm cat that wanders our property is her cat.
Dang man, that's heavy! So you live in a farmy area?
I live on a farm surrounded by woods in Southern Lancaster County In a big farm house. Its quiet. I love it.
what is one of your favorite Bible verses, and why do you like it?
The Bible is infallible and perfectly executed in its creation. The Bible is Gods word given to us and I believe every page, every word is calculated and is intended to be carefully interpreted and lived by! That’s not to say we will all read and understand it all but we must trust in the Bible as that. Now given that context, I’ve never really considered what my favorite verses are. What I can say is that at different times in my life the Bible has provided me with the discernment and wisdom to maneuver my life in a certain direction and impacted the way I think and live, and one example where a very important chapter and verse left me stunned is Romans 9:14-24. It is very humbling and really paints an amazing portrait of Gods Holiness and how amazing the whole concept of salvation really is.
During my very rough journey back to the church, back to being a part of a church community, back to believing in God in a real way, or maybe for the first time?! I first had to wrestle with the biblical interpretation of how salvation works and that even my ability to see the gospel as absolutely truth, and all the intense themes that seem completely illogical to a Godless society... all of it was Gods doing. Giving me life. Saving my life. Giving me the family and friends that I have. Giving me sound mind to understand and believe it. All of this given to me. Why me? What makes me one of God’s elect? I’ve done nothing to deserve it, and I’m not a good human being. I’m nowhere near as good at this Christian thing as so many other people around me, who have even less than I do!!! Yet there is the grace. It’s astounding, and it is humbling because when you finally realize that God gets the full glory for all of it can you finally see how much time we wasted doing and saying so much garbage and thinking we chose to be good, to be moral, to take some higher road... is just absolutely stunning and it changes your whole approach of doing the Christian thing, it takes this tremendous weight off your shoulders and it puts you in your place. It allows you to see you are not in control of anything, even your “choice” to “accept Jesus” is really just another work of the Holy Spirit!! But it also haunts you at first because you also realized how foolish you’ve been before you realized that it’s not about you and your good works! I just thought to myself “You’ve wasted so much time... God please have mercy” It’s a monumental time of spiritual discovery for me and I think that verse’s meaning and the implications of that is a key factor missing in the lives of a lot of evangelicals. They really need to start there I think.
That's wild what you said about the Holy Spirit working to influence our "choice" to accept Jesus. Not to digress to far, but do you think we have free will? Your phrasing and use of quotations around "choice" makes me think you are being ironic, and there really is no choice made? Do you think we have free will? Jesus said he called us out to be His children, right? That makes it sound like he picked us, which supports predestination and lack of free will.
Tony Evans says we have free will, and God chooses to not force us to do anything.
Maybe there are some people who have more "help" from the Holy Spirit in turning to Jesus, and others have less? Such an interesting topic, and God is so trippy to think about. I love it.
Well, i don’t think its so much that we deny free will, but rather that God influences how we think and feel and we are still responding to his drawing us into his will. If you are dead in your trespasses and sins, how do freely choose God? Read Romans 3, Paul addresses this in the bible.
“None is righteous, no, not one, no one understands, no one seeks for God.All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:9-19)
When left to our own free will, we, as dead sinners are what Paul describes in Romans 3. We are not righteous, we do not understand, we don’t seek God.
so then you have to ask, how do we go from dead sinners who do not seek for God to people who repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus Christ?
Ephesians 2:4 says “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
That's essentially Gods regenerating us, giving us new minds, new life. I believe that is a part of our free will. We choose in the sense that we respond to what we think and feel, but if we choose God, as spiritually dead people, its because God first awakened us to this. God does the work, and we respond in faith, and repentance. Then predestination starts to sink in a little more for what it actually is. I do not see this any other way, and i do not find it to be mediocre. I really think this is the only practical way to approach this subject. Its not enough to just say “we choose good, we have free will and we did a good job and made an excellent choice”
So I guess the choice we have is: choose to have faith in God or choose to not?
I don't think its about choosing. I think its about being chosen. Election. This is controversial, basically only to the modern non denominational churches who have only in the last 100 or so years, walked away from the doctrines found in the bible. Im not a bible expert by far, i am terrible, but i do know this. There are verses that are crystal clear on election.
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity
Romans 9:15 -24
I will have mercy for whom i will have mercy, and i will have compassion for whom i will have compassion
Exodus 33:19
And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."
Isaiah 65:1
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
I could honestly look up more, lots more.
We are dead, spiritually speaking. We cannot choose God on our own merits, in the big picture. God, draws us to him, he gives us the mind to understand, he gives us the conviction to answer, he gives us the weight of conscience to answer that call, he gives us the nightmares as we sleep that haunt us until we finally say "I need this in my life" God literally, and quite irresistibly draws us to him. Now, from our side of it, looking at life from the human day to day perspective, we may think, "Geez, I'm starting to have a change of heart about this Jesus stuff, i really am starting to sway in that direction. Maybe I should talk to a pastor, or visit a church" or maybe we just say "Jesus... you are who they say you are" whatever the case may be... we come to this realization and we respond. That in a sense is free will, because we respond, and choose to pick up our cross and live by it.
But... God has a purpose and a plan for us, so no matter what decisions we make to go one way or the other, to throw everything in the garbage and say, "Nevermind, this isn't for me" none of that changes the history that God designed. There are people who say they are Christians, but actually are not Christians because they have not been irresistibly been drawn to Christ. They convinced themselves, either from being raised that way, or being scared of Hell, or getting into a youth group with friends and following them, or getting into a music scene or going to a big music festival and seeing tons of bands who all act spirit filled, so many examples where people are convinced they are Christians, or have tried to be, and it turns out none of it is real with them because they haven't experienced true regeneration.
Matthew 7:21-23 says
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
So you may wonder, "Why does so and so, who used to be a Christian, now walk away from the faith and die an atheist" Its because they never truly have had that regeneration.
By the same token, if Christ chooses to give you salvation, if he chooses to draw you to him, then how on earth would we be able to change Gods desire? Gods will for us? We cannot. Its called Irresistible grace. Its one of the 5 solas. Thats important to know as we live as Christians. That is why we can relax when evangelicals get on the social media and blogs, and tv, and say awful things in the name of God, and cause so much confusion and anger in people. Its because these people lack grace, they have absolutely no clue what the Hell they are doing, because they have not experienced that grace. Not because they did or did not choose to... but because they have not experienced the Holy spirit for real.
Now, that may cause you to ask this question "so then, your saying that If i believe, and i say Jesus is Lord, Jesus may still not have chosen me or elected me"? But then i remind you, if you have that thought, that conviction, he already has done the work. Its those who deny Jesus entirely, or think they are soldiers for Christ, when really they are enemies of God. (Colossians 1:21)
Oh wow... so it's more like, God saved us because Jesus wanted to be with us?
Yes, isn't that a much lovelier thought, than the idea that we just wake up one day and decide to love a God who calls us to die to ourselves? That doesn't even make any sense.
God calls us to die of self, why/how on earth would a sinful human being decide that on their own?
Our God loves us, despite that sin and we are his bride. Beautiful image of truth
So what kinda music did you listen to growing up?
I am like so many other kids who grew up in Christian homes and listened to Christian radio, but later would connect with different decades/genres of music. I started out with my mom and dad's music. Amy Grant, Michael W Smith, Petra, Whiteheart My parents, being youth group leaders meant i was exposed to a lot of what the older kids were jamming, and we would go to Creation fest back in the 80's. I saw the very first Newsboys show in America. It wasn't even on a stage. It was a pavilion at the festival. I saw Whitecross early on, stuff like that. I saw Petra before and after John Schlitt sang. I discovered Stryper in 1985 when they played on TV. I was mesmerized, and i was obsessed with them for many years. I got into playing drums at age 7 because of Robert Sweet. I used to put tape on my drums to make his striped drum kit. I used to paint a damn silver cross on my cheek. Obsessed bro!!!! So, as i said, being surrounded by the older kids, one handed me a dubbed cassette of Vengeance Rising's Human Sacrifice and told me to check it out. The first song on it i heard was Beheaded. Scared the crap out of me. I got really into thrash music around this time. Deliverance, Believer, Mortification, Tourniquet, Living Sacrifice, and basically any forms of metal music available. Funny story, i am not sure how many of your readers know of the band Thresher. Thresher was this thrash band local to me here in PA. Their bassist, Dave Kurtz used to go to our church, and he was a camp counselor of mine, and he had the metal look, the long hair. I got his album "Totally Possessed" back then, and wore that tape out.
The next huge musical shift for me came when my cousin Travis introduced me to Scaterd Few. The album Sin Disease. It blew my mind. Its still to this day my favorite hardcore punk album. Nothing rivals it. Its just so completely unlike anything i have ever heard, and it introduced me to the world of Bad Brains, and Bauhaus, and Jane's Addiction. At this point i was also getting into my teenage years. Soon after that Tooth and Nail Records came out, and then it was just over. I was absorbing so much. Blenderhead, Focused, Starflyer 59, Wish For Eden, Joy Electric. I had already been so big into Mortal, 77s, Daniel Amos, The Crucified, etc. When you are a Christian kid who suddenly discovers this huge world of music you didn't know about, you just absorb it all like a sponge. A huge reason why TOTMs music started out the way it did was that our brains were overloaded with so many great bands all at the same time. Then of course, i was old enough to listen to secular music without guilt. High school helped with that also. Smashing Pumpkins, Cranes, The Cure, 90s alternative radio, Metallica, Primus, Slayer, Fugazi, Today Is The Day, Unsane, Shudder To Think, Built To Spill, Karp, Melvins, Mr Bungle, Faith No More. Tons of DC Hardcore, East coast stuff. The 80s and 90s really molded me into the person i would be artistically.
Around 2000, I got really into prog rock, after TOTM albums were already written. That's the funny thing. Everyone was telling me that I reminded them of Geddy Lee and that TOTM reminded them of Rush. I hadn't even listened to them until around 2001. Rush became a massive influence for later music. I was fortunate to see them live a few times. King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Genesis, stuff like that. Then i got into my late 20's early 30's, goth/cold wave/neofolk/classical/
The complicated thing is, I am still clinging to my Amy Grant records and those types of things from when i was young. But everything from then to now is all still so great to me. If you go to my record collection and look at what albums are next to each other, you'd get a kick out of it. Slayer is next to Michael W Smith. Franki Valli is right next to Vengeance. Stryper is next to Swans. My Death records are right before Depeche Mode. I'm a mess. Musically I am firing in so many directions, i just love so much.
That's super interesting what you said about "A huge reason why TOTMs music started out the way it did was that our brains were overloaded with so many great bands all at the same time."
That kinda leads to another question I had: What was your vision with TOTM? What did you want TOTM to be, sound like, and function as?
I realize you kinda just answered that, but can you talk a little more about your goals as an artist and a band at that time?
If i am honest, i have never really given much thought about this idea that Tantrum Of The Muse set out to achieve something. I think that stuff became more clear as we went along, and saw that TOTM could be used to do any number of things. Encourage kids who talked to us, giving them some place of belonging, or of course, we could destroy people by spitting foolish things into their faces. With a band like that, we found that we had a responsibility because people were listening. We would show up, and if you didn't know who we were or what we did, you did not see it coming, and we would just play as loudly and with as much urgency as we could and people started paying attention. It really happened fast. I can recall playing a few shows around PA and could see so much growth from those local shows, people would go and spread the news of this weird heavy band. It felt bigger than us in some way. Its hard to specify exactly, but it was real.
So with that in mind, you realize you can do a lot with that to affect people's lives. Positive, negative. For us, i think we ended up doing a lot of both. In one way we gave people hope that Christianity was not what they thought it resembled, and especially with the liberty of playing the kind of music we played, people knew we were Christians, and that encouraged them because they didn't think Christians would or could do what we were doing. I would get that comment a lot. I remember when Aaron from Mewithoutyou, who then, was a drummer for The Operation, he came up to me after a show and told me that TOTM gave him a restored hope in Christian artistry or music. That was what i think we did best. I had a guy call me on the phone from Texas, he told me he was suicidal for a long time, and he struggled in his faith, and our albums inspired him to stay alive. That may sound melodramatic, but its real. It happened, and I will never forget that. While that all was going on, there was also the negative! We were not discipled Christians, and we thought we were justified in that. We had no church body supporting us, because we lost the will to even try, because we did not understand the rich truth of the bible, we just rode the fumes of what our parents taught us. We were just in a funk. Life got super intense with the 3 of us too, and that caused us to really get angrier, and that fed into the music and the reputation, and soon we found ourselves doing stupid things and saying stupid things. Foolish things. We probably bred a lot of lazy Christian punk kids who no longer felt the need to go to a traditional church. Back then, we would have said that too. Now? No way!!! We would never want that for our listeners now. But, back then, I felt like a child with an automatic weapon. You give a child a weapon and see what it produces. TOTM was a happy accident in that way. Good came out of it, but bad did too!
So going all the way back to your question, i think in the very beginning, Rick and I just wanted to get the hell out of school, and get into the vibrant punk/hardcore/indie scene that was exploding. We had dabbled in playing in bands, and as i said, we were doing this band called Ruckus. That kinda molded into the beginnings of TOTM. We thought the highest goal at the time was to record an album, and have a label put it out on a CD, and maybe, just maybe, tour around and of course we wanted to play Cornerstone Festival, which we eventually did. That was what we set out to do. Musically, I just think with all of those influences hitting us, and the 90's being such an amazing time for heavy alternative music, we saw our contemporaries, and we wanted to just do something absolutely bonkers, and be as loud, and creative as possible. We were just weirdos who had no idea who or what we were. ADHD in full swing. Even though i would never write a lot of those songs now, when i listen back to that first TOTM album, I just say to myself "say what you want about it being dated in areas, or lyrically being so immature in areas, musically, I am really proud that we could make something that strong right out of high school" I'm still impressed that we could make a memorable musical statement like that, with that kind of confidence, and just not care. I'm happy that i have made interesting music for the past 20 years. For that I am most proud. While I'm thinking about our first album, it was a lot more honest than Modernmu$ick(2000)! The difference between those albums is, even though we were a much better band on that 2nd album, we knew we had a reputation. Before when we recorded the first album, we did not. We had no clue what would or could happen. So we went into the studio that 2nd time knowing people were listening, so i think some of the songs were written with too much awareness of that. Great album cover though.
I only wish that "the weapon" was handed to us now with Unteachers, middle aged family men, committed to the gospel, and confronting culture, not the church... we could really take advantage of that and make some good use of it now but its like that saying, youth is wasted on the young.
You mentioned earlier growing up in a Christian home. Did you grow up being involved in the church? It sounds like you left the church (TOTM "didn't have a church body" supporting you), and then came back, and now suggest that your listeners do attend a church. What made you leave the church, and what made you come back?
Well, I'm not suggesting that our listeners are or aren’t attending a church, but i am hoping that they are, and that their church is preaching the word of God. But to answer your question, I was raised Christian. My parents were Catholic, and my mom converted to Christianity, shortly after i was born and baptized, so my father followed later. We attended a lot of churches, and if i am honest, my parents just did not pick a good church. My whole life, the churches we would go to, for whatever reason, would fall apart, or the pastor would abuse his position, or it was some type of bat shit crazy Charismatic cult. My parents had gotten involved, very early, like the mid to late 80's, being youth leaders. So there was a lot of older kid influence around me as i had said. Later on, around early 1990's, my dad became a worship leader for our small church. He would sing and play guitar. I would actually drum for the church with him. I was very active in church from the mid 80's until around 1997. It was in 1997 where my age had caught up to the bad church jumping thing, and i was old enough to say I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. Its a shame because leaving church all together was not the answer, but what did I know? What would have kept me there? Obviously Christ kept me close to him, and he gave me grace as i drifted. In all my anti-church nonsense and how that shaped me into a foolish person, I always knew Christ was there. That never faded. You know, once saved, always saved. That's the Bible, and I was an example of that. There is no reason why I would have been a Christian after dealing with that stuff growing up. This was not a coincidence! People don't just "go back" after church abuse and feeling empty from it all. I went into dark places, and wrote dark and depressing and angry songs, but Christ was still there. I could feel that. But yeah, in 1997, after the last "slain in the spirit" prank was played on me in church, where i laid there on the floor, looking to the guy to the left and right of me, and seeing them lying on the floor looking over at me, it dawned on me "What the heck am I doing? Why am i putting up with this? This is absolute garbage. Its a scam. Its not real and I feel really disgusting, and i want none of this. If this is church, I'm done. If this is how Christianity works than I am a broken Christian, this isn't for me" So I left. Got into typical post High school shenanigans, played in bands, started TOTM, toured, and floated through life from 1997 til about 2004. Around 2004, I had met the woman who i would marry, and we started to grow in our relationship and as that had started to happen, it just so happened that Rick (TOTM/Unteachers drummer) had returned to church, and he was committed to that, and I was angry at him for it. He gave me some CDS of some sermons that were really solid. I was hearing elements of reformed theology, and it was making more sense. It validated a lot of what i felt was wrong and mediocre and foolish about my church upbringing, yet it was showing me the bible works, in a real way, for the very first time in my life. Long story short, around 2006-2007 we started visiting churches, and finally landed where we are now, in Westminster Presbyterian (PCA) here in Lancaster, PA. One of the other key factors in me taking this Christian faith thing seriously was when one of my good atheist friends, who i had been hanging out comfortably with, without any confrontation or spiritual debating, had said to me "I can respect Christians like you, because you keep it to yourself, you don't talk about it" and in an instant i remember thinking "You aren't an offense to the world around you, and nothing you are doing resembles Christianity. Atheists think your fine because you keep your mouth shut" that seemed off to me. Immediately I was convicted and it made sense. I wasn't dying to self so Christ could live. So immediately i was open to listening to those sermon CDs, and so slowly I was finding myself really excited about the gospel, for the very first time.
What has been the church's response to TOTM? Did your church approve of and encourage your efforts with TOTM? Or did TOTM offend people from the church?
I would be shocked to hear that they were supportive, because your first album with TOTM was called The Heart is a Two Headed Sperm, and that isn't something church folk usually dig: talking about sperm. And your second full length $$Modernmu$ick(2000!)$$ had a flaming decapitated pigs head sitting next to the Bible on the cover, which correct me if I'm wrong but this is what you mentally pictured when you thought of the Christian music 'industry'?
So yeah, just a couple reasons I thought maybe church folk weren't super receptive to your music.
But I have no idea what your church was/is like! I just know that stuff wouldn't fly at the Assemblies of God church I went to growing up.
You are absolutely right in saying that Assemblies Of God church would not support TOTM, and knowing that denomination the way i do, i would say they would also not support Unteachers, because AOG is more of that charismatic chaos!
We were really not involved in church, and we were young, bitter, well intentioned for the most part, but definitely ill informed, regarding the church at large, and church history, doctrine, etc. We were not in church so churches supporting TOTM was never something we had. To take it a step further, we were banned from Christian bookstores, which is where Christian record labels sold their music, i guess, because Tower Records and stores like that would not carry Christian music? Im not too sure, but i always hated that, and i did not care too much that we were banned. That's not where we wanted to be marketed anyway. Hence, "Screw The Chri$tian Industry". That song was just about us wanting to rid the world of a segregated Christian music industry that had to be split from the mainstream music market. We had parents at Cornerstone Festival, walking up to our merch table, pissed off, holding their kids by the collar, demanding we return their money for the filthy devil music CDs we sold their kid. Most times we could have a conversation, and the parents would calm down. Cornerstone was cool, we loved playing there, and they were in no position to judge us because they had a million bands playing at that festival, and there was no way to monitor the bullcrap that so many of those artists were preaching from the stage. It was a cesspool of theologies. Not to mention, while TOTM was the offensive band, we were mostly found at our hotel room watching cable and eating take out, while the big bands from the main stage were partying down the halls from us, and trying to sleep with girl friends of ours. Pathetic! All of that Christian image was a sham. Not so much from the zealous bands that we came up with, who really meant those lyrics. I'm talking about all those angry spirit filled hard-core fanatics who were on indie labels. A flooded market of "every guy in a band" who would say one thing and do another. Its kind of what i see happening now, but its with social media and podcasts. All those same bands are now doing podcasts and talking about how much God let them down. Back then, they were all "spirit filled" while drinking and partying and being 2 faced. TOTM was real. Even when we were failing at being good role models, at least i can say we were honest.
We were also not supported by the big Christian concert promoters locally. We were based in Pennsylvania, and that's where both Creation Festival and Purple Door music and arts festival are based out of. Neither festival let us play. TOTM was too offensive for that festival. Fast forward to 2017, the pastor for Creation concerts, Harry Thomas, was arrested for sexually assaulting children over a period of 16+ years. Its just that kind of hypocrisy that fueled TOTMs disdain for the church back then. Thankfully, i can read about this kind of stuff now, and it makes me want to embrace the gospel more, because i know that Christians, Christian industries, ministries, all of them are used by sinners who are flawed fallen people. So I can look at the past, and the present, and i can see that this world is full of screwed up people who are going to fall short, and some of them are in Christian ministries, and ban bands like TOTM from playing their establishments, and ruining their squeaky clean reputation. It will be interesting seeing how people are going to react to Unteachers, being that we will most likely offend for different reasons. But you know, i do not mean to put everyone in a box. These things I saw, it wasn't every band. Every person who claimed they loved Jesus but did horrible things. While we all sin, some people were actually strong and legitimate. Some were honest, some were fakers. Hell... even The Newsboys were on drugs.
That is all fascinating to hear. I've never seen a true behind-the-scenes look at the Christian music industry, but hearing your experiences with major Christian bands getting wasted and trying to sleep with your band's girlfriends, that's insane dude. You just shattered my perfect Christian bubble image, and for that I thank you.
What kinda drugs do Christian bands often use? Pills, meth, psychedelics? Do a lot of Christian bands smoke weed?
Well, that is just the thing man. There is NO perfect Christian market. As children who buy music and follow those bands, we should not be expected at such a young age that it isn't what it seems, but by now we should grow to realize that it is an incredibly flawed market, and any time you market yourself as a messenger from God out to save the world, but deal with record labels, and industry standard business practices, you are going to have to compromise somewhere. Or maybe you just feel like you have to follow a certain trend in culture, in this case a Christian culture where then, it was popular to say you are a spirit filled Christian. A man built of dirt and spit, full of error, needing a savior. That much is true. But I think a lot of bands built themselves up as that image, because it was a trend to do so. You hear it all the time, bands breaking up and saying "we felt God called us to put it down" then they start another band that seems to sell better than the first. I always think to myself "why did you have to spiritualize the fact that your band hit a wall and you decided to change gears and career path, why cant that be enough"? Its because everything is sold as a "mission from God" and its not. Its just a trend, and a scene. It was a moment in time where people were duped into thinking they had a future in music by following that trend. None of that stuff is real to me. What is real is just honest people making honest music, and being honest about their choices. We were that band. Unteachers is that band. I do not know how to do it any other way. If i did drugs i would not pretend that i do not. If i smoke pot, i would not tell a listener that i do not. If i drank before a show, i would not lie about that. I'm not trying to sell any image. I'm just being myself. Unteachers, collectively, are not the squeaky clean image of what a Christian is expected to do to be in a band and sing about Jesus. We love Jesus, we are very serious about the gospel, we are very serious about music, and the lyrics. We take all of that seriously. But, speaking just for myself, i have smoked weed, i drink alcohol, i cuss sometimes like a sailor. Is all of this ok? Maybe not. But i am not going to pretend that I am not. None of that is important to me anyway. Unteachers is all about the music. 3 Christian family men, who love Jesus, feel we are at a battle culturally, we are confronting that through music and art. That's it, plain and simple. Nothing else is important to us. We are not out to save souls. We will tell people how vital it is to know Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will do his work as he chooses, using us, or using someone else. If that isn't squeaky clean enough for your Christian empire? Than we will be happy to play somewhere else. We simply do not care about what people think, and if you are realistic and you examine that people are full of shit, than you won't take it so personally when they let you down.
What was the concept or overall theme of TOTM's first album, The Heart is a Two Headed Sperm?
Looking back to 20 years ago, when i was barely 20 years old, we felt like outcasts because we were rooted in Christian families, but we were getting a first real dose of the reality that there was a world outside of our bubble, musically, socially, spiritually, and so we were typical angry teenagers, who, like i mentioned before had discovered this insane amount of music, and we found ourselves at an age where we could appreciate more than one or 2 genres, and absorbed so much of that influence into our own music. I had been through many years of psychiatric evaluations, counseling, special needs classes, because my well intentioned parents thought there was something seriously wrong with me. This is the whole beginnings of hearing about ADHD, and how some students in school just cannot cope in regular classroom settings. Back then the research and the studies and the tests made you feel like you were lesser than the others, mentally. It made you feel like you were disabled. I hate that term "learning disability" because all it really is, as far as i can tell, and ADHD is totally a real thing, but, it seems to me that you have different people who learn in different ways and are really intelligent in different ways, and depending on the subject matter, and the repetition of day to day routines, some students will learn one way, while the others will learn in a different way. I was the creative kid, who drew on his books during class, had no interest in high school at all and though i did graduate, i would say i have barely any high school education. I just wanted to play music, watch horror movies and be a punk.
I was also put on a lot of medication at this time. Ritalin, for example, though there were several others. These types of medications made me feel insane. They helped in some areas but made me physically mentally pretty...intense ill say. I think the drugs helped TOTM but was also making me unhealthy. I gained weight. I would get high blood pressure. I was young too. This is all before TOTM, so i was like 16, etc. So now you feel depressed because you aren't normal apparently, and then you struggle with your looks, your self esteem, but the drugs also mask some of that and make you really out there, and on top of it all, it makes you really anxious to do what you love, to create, to make music. So the perfect storm for that first TOTM album is this all of that history leading up to graduating, being exposed to all of that music, and lastly, church. For me, i gave up on church. Didn't want to go anymore, did not see the need, and hated my experiences. All of this contributed to what type of band we were, and what kinds of lyrics and music we wrote. So, the album is called "The Heart Is A Two Headed Sperm" and i had romanticized this idea that the valentine heart was a perfect symbol to flip upside down, much like an inverted cross concept, it was one of the ongoing lyrical themes. Trying to understand relationships, and sexuality, and coming of age nonsense like that, and "Anti-Valentines" kind of attitude toward everything. Mean spiritedness. Though i still think Valentines Day is a stupid invention. So this heart, upside down, for some reason at the time, on those drugs, resembled a two headed sperm. I drew it to look like a sperm. I thought then, that the visual of a upside down heart was really cool, and so we made this nonsensical attention grabbing concept, and wrote a bunch of inspired, honest and unapologetic bat shit crazy punk music. I am trying to answer that question with a bit of what led up to it, as opposed to the concept itself with no explanation.
It's really interesting you said the Ritalin meds made you really out there. I take a bunch of pills every day and I'm really out there. I was diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, PTSD, etc. Now they tell me I have Autism/Asperger's, and the ADHD etc is a misdiagnosed symptom of Autism. I love TOTM so much, you guys helped me so much growing up. Your lyrics are honest and real, and talk about real stuff like depression and the like
What was it like recording The Heart... album? Were the songs already written, or did they come together during the recording process? Are you happy with how it sounds?
That's intense bro. Yeah TOTM was made for guys like you, who struggle in similar ways. Now, keep in mind, I wrote this album when i was 19? The upside down heart is really just a spoof of the upside down cross. Rejecting the notion of a valentines heart as a symbol of love. It seemed clever at the time. I wouldn't take it all too seriously then or now, haha. Its fun though, and the album deals with some really tough things for a 19 year old to see. Our first real touch of emotional pain. Losing a friend to cancer, depression, sexuality and trying to remain celibate, trying to understand God coming out of Charismania, feeling angry that school system, church, adults have in some way or another failed you. Feeling rejected. its all in there man.
As far as recording the album. It was a lot of fun, i can tell you that much. The songs were written except for "Headcheese Recipe (Destroy The Herps)" and on many of the tracks we just came up with stuff on the fly, and threw it in there. We were recording with a friend of ours, Jeff Stoltzfus, who worked at a television station called ACTV in West Reading, PA. His day job was to broadcast Christian family based television. They had this sound booth room filled with television broadcasting equipment, and expensive TV cameras lying around. Jeff had recorded some of our demos from pre-TOTM, and he moved up from a 4 track, to 8, to I think 16 tracks. We were given $700 from this dude named Bob, who ran Sofa Records in Philadelphia (Pink Daffodils, Redeem, Speedy Delivery, One 21, Headnoise, etc) He saw us play our very first show, and thought we were cool and decided he was going to put our album out. We went into the tv station with a rough draft of songs but we honestly had no clue what they were going to sound like until we started tracking. We used the TV cameras and shot 4 VHS tapes filled with footage of us recording the album. You can almost see the entire makings of the album on these tapes. Its insane. Hours of us working it out, and making things happen that you now hear on the album. I should add that Rick and I were the only 2 making the album. We had a bassist, his name is Jason. He was with us early on and wrote some parts with us. We played some shows as that original line up but Jason was going through some things personally and our lives were kind of going in opposite directions. So when we went to record, it was just us. Jason hung out at the studio and he is the one you hear screaming like a slaughtered pig on "Luddle" at the end when the chainsaw comes in. Hilarious! I still laugh when i hear that. We were huge Texas Chainsaw Massacre fans (still are) and so we stole from that soundtrack and film a lot to make our album. So yeah, as we were laying stuff down, we tried different things, brought in friends and put them to work, singing, clapping, yelling, Jeff played the saxophone really well but we told him to just make a bunch of noise with it. It was just this super creative energy, and we were just let loose to do whatever we wanted with very little time constraints, and we pieced together everything as we went. The rain on "My Depression Outfit" is real, we set the mics outside during this crazy rain storm. The glass breaking noise, that's us just throwing bottles into a bucket and breaking them. Just whatever we thought would be interesting, we did it.
As far as my being happy with how it sounds. I'm too close to it to really say with certainty if what i still hear is real or not, but I would say that it holds up really well, and sounds horrible, but that is part of its charm. I have no idea what it would be like to hear this with fresh ears now. No clue. I should show it to somebody now and see what they think. What i love about it sonically is just how honest it is. Again, there is just something about the 2 of us in that studio making art, and not really caring or even knowing about things like getting really good tone, we had terrible gear, we never used tuners then, and so our tuning was like slightly below B tuning. We were totally inexperienced punks with a lot of pent up thoughts and ideas given free reign to make an album that, we thought was going to be a cd release on Sofa Records, but when Bob heard it he rejected it, and told us we could go find somebody else to release it. He asked me "are there supposed to be weird noises and whispering and all that odd crap in the song"? I said, "Yeah man, all of that was intentional" Funny story, we sent the album to Tooth and Nail Records. They actually gave us a call and told us that they were interested and it was between us and Shorthanded. They told us "We can do this but you are going to have to re-record the album, change the title, and change lyrics/song titles" Hahaha, we told them "No way, we are proud of this thing" I often wonder what would have happened to us if we had done it. We would not own the rights to the album and the album would have been recorded in a real studio. I cant imagine how that would have gone.
Another really weird story about that album and Ido not think I ever told anyone this in an interview before but, on the very first day of going to the studio to start the recording of the album, we were sitting at a red light a few blocks from studio, and there were 2 cars in front of us. When the light turned green, the car in the front just sat there. Then the light turned red again. Then green, still sitting there. After this happened 2 or 3 times, a guy on a bike came along and looked into the car of the person in the front, and informed us that the driver was dead. He had, apparently known he was dying, put the car in park, and dropped dead. I remember thinking, "Oh boy, what's next?"
What label originally released The Heart is a Two-Headed Sperm and how did you find them?
Sofa Records intended to release the album and paid to record it, but passed on it. We sent it to Tooth And Nail Records, but the wanted to butcher what we thought was a really cool sounding album, we sold it on cd-r DIY copies for about a year, then Takehold Records signed us after seeing us at Cornerstone 1999
Takehold is where I first heard about you guys! They had your album for sale in their catalog, it looked super interesting so I ordered it.
So your next album with TOTM was Downtown and the Sidhe, right? What was the story behind that album?
Modernmu$ick(2000)! was the 2nd album, that came out in the summer of 2000, while touring for that album we played Tom Fest, a festival in WA and it was recorded. A label from OH called Burning Records wanted to work with us, so we decided to release the live EP, and include some unreleased bonus stuff. I hate the art. I hate the title. I wanted to call it simply Downtrodden. Rick added the fairy crap. He loved the art from this fairy book, i also love the art in the book, but i didn’t want to use it on our CD and to this day i hate that release.
My bad, I thought the story of the Sidhe in the liner notes was interesting! The Sidhe entices people to dance with them, and it only seems like a little while, but after the dance something like 1000 years has gone by. That's what I remember it saying anyway. One time I thought maybe television is a Sidhe.
So that brings us to Modernmu$ick(2000)! I really think this is TOTM's masterpiece, there's just something whole and complete about MM2k. I dunno man, I just think the album is one of the best albums ever, and certainly one of the best albums in Christian music(k).
So first off, the front cover art shows a decapitated pig head set on fire sitting inside an open Bible. I've never seen anything like that, before or after. You said this is what came to mind when you thought of the Christian industry, is that right?
I'll respond to that with this...
So, first of all, thank you for saying that. I agree with you that its something worth celebrating, and the cover art is definitely one of those things. The music is something I am very proud of also. Some of the lyrics, not all, but some. While I think our first album would be truer to the idea and spirit of the TOTM energy, M$M is definitely the cleaner, and bigger sounding album. I hate the way it sounds, and i plan on finding a studio that can help me transfer the audio from analog tape to a digital format so i can change it to the way it was originally supposed to sound. In fact if anybody reading this interview knows anybody who can help in that way, or have any interest in helping us press it on vinyl/CD please get in touch.
Anyway, thank you, thank you for being so kind
But, saying that, I have to again reiterate that where this record went wrong is that it was mean spirited. Understand that i have zero reputation to protect with this old band of mine, so Ill be completely honest. I probably did say something like "the cover reminds me of the Christian music Industry" and we wrote a song about that, so i guess i could have likely said that, but there comes a point in time when your anger is stagnant, and as it sits festering, everything that comes into your life, good or bad, you find a way to see it as a constant negative, and in my case, my anger felt like a comfortable pair of shoes, I liked wearing my anger for everybody to see, and it lead to me having to be somebody that i should not have been. Some of it can be chalked up to youth, confusion, immaturity, sure... but it was not the best time for me to be speaking publicly, or speaking out of any authoritative position for Christianity or the church!!! I mean, it got to the point where you could ask me "Hey what do you think of this band, or this church, or this author, etc" and if it had anything to do with the Christian industry in any sense, whether i dug it or not, or whether i even knew anything about it, and usually I did not, my answer would still think i had to speak on it, or have an answer to it, and being TOTM it had to be criticizing in some way. It's kind of like all of the people who have nothing to do with church now, but have so much to say about it. We were mean spirited, and ignorant, and we had to play some stupid character because we knew our live shows were strong and there was a reputation that proceeded it, so that meant we had to be the villains, the bastards. Recently Jim went on Canadian radio with his new band, Hand Of Fire, and went on an embarrassing rant criticizing the church at large, and making it sound like church was not important, and that churches just take your money. He had every chance to explain himself and he had every chance to take back what he said because the bottom line is that Jim has an opinion about something that he bases all upon a few experiences that burned him. Man, I'm tired of that stuff. People disobey the bible, they do church their own way, and then it burns them, and then they decide to be the authority on the church, and frankly i am just sick to death of watching friends of mine, family, talk with authority about something they have zero clue about because they don't want to really know about it. That was TOTM. For at least Rick and I, that's not us anymore. Jim may feel that way still, but not us. It's not important for me to have answers to things that I don't really have thought out answers for, just because I am asked. You asked me about the comments made about the cover art, and that's where I sit, now, with it.
Now, removing all of that from the conversation about the cover art meaning, I will tell you the real deal. The true story, the funny story.
There was no real meaning behind it. It was visual. The visuals depict something that resembled, to us, the dinner depiction in Texas Chainsaw Massacre (1974). That movie was such a huge influence from the visuals, to the soundtrack, on both of our albums. We sampled it, we did improvisational noise tracks, we named a song "Headcheese Recipe" that was a total tip of the hat to the movie. Visually, that was the idea. We wanted something horrific, but the bible open at the table, was to set some kind of "morning breakfast devotional" and there was nothing really more to it.
We also were/are huge fans of the band Shudder To Think, and at the time, we were heavily into the album "Pony Express Record" and we loved the album art and how the band presented themselves on it. We kinda had that in mind.
The funny thing is, and the whole making of that cover is a whole story unto itself, a really long, hilarious story, but I’ve been rambling a lot already, and so I’ll give you a quick one
The cover that was originally intended is the image that's inside the cover, with the breakfast set, and the upside down heart picture frame. That was supposed to be the cover. That's what we set out to make. While we were taking the pictures, our friend Katie was the photographer, she had a nice camera and knew a little about photography, so she was walking around snapping pictures from every angle and Rick and myself were manipulating the set with various things added to it. The apple with the symbols cut into it was done on the spot with Katie's fingernail because she didn't have a knife. So you can kinda see that. Once we had all the pictures we thought we needed, I had this funny idea to burn the pig head and get a few snapshots. I kinda just said it out loud, we kinda laughed, and after we joked about it, i ran out of the house to go get some gasoline. I was living at my parents house in the attic room, which is where we were doing this. My bed was moved out so we could take all of the pictures for the album in there. It looked just like the Blair Witch Project house at the end. Even had handprints all over the walls. Creepy. We took the band pics in that room and house too.
Anyway, so I'm running up the steps with this cup of gasoline, and my mother says "hey what are you doing" and i responded with "nothing, ill be right back"
So, we all stood by. I was going to dump the gas and light it up. Katie would snap a few pics really fast, like 2, 3 seconds worth, then Rick would dump the water on it. We did exactly that. The smell was awful, and i just threw the pig head out the attic window so my mom would not freak out. Hahaha.
The amazing thing about the cover art is that the picture you see on there is exactly how it turned out. We manipulated nothing. It was perfect, and we could not believe how unbelievably creepy and weird and unexplainable it looked. People probably think its fake and they'd be terribly mistaken. A last minute idea with a few pics left on the film role, and the rest is history!
You said you had a negative mindset so much that even good things happening felt negative to you.
How did you get out of that mindset? Does it ever come back?
When you are brought up to believe in Jesus but in a way that doesn’t provide answers, or you say “God, I know you’re there, can you speak to me” and you are told that you don’t have “enough” faith, or you constantly hear people say “God spoke to me and I heard a voice cry out” those types of chaotic unbiblical works just left me confused, disillusioned and, at the time I felt as if I was left to fend for myself, but we both know that type of DIY Christianity is a self made trap. I was feeling like a broken Christian, a broken “toy” that does not do the necessary functions of a “Christian” so I’m empty in church, empty in my prayer life, and there is emptiness regarding who I am and where I am headed, and all through this feeling like I had some big purpose in life, it really creates this toxic warped ignorant view of reality. I tried to live out my own “feelings” of what a Christian should be but I had even less answers and I found that my thinking became more liberal, which I believe is connected to a certain spiritual life, and I’d always say “I believe in Jesus” but my lifestyle and the way I carried myself was not showing growth or any spiritual fruit. Living both as the so called “broken Christian” or the “DIY liberal, just be nice and love people” Christian were both a completely empty and meaningless waste of my time, and subconsciously I guess because you deep down have anger, I’m walking around with egg on my face “well that was a flop, what a fool I was to fall for this garbage” whether you realize it or not, you are prepping yourself to never be fooled again, never be on the receiving end of church abuse etc.
So you know, subconsciously you get more and more negative because you are doing something that is a direct result of broken empty promises, and deep down as you rebel against that you are still disillusioned and you wish it was different than what you believe it truly is.
Thankfully, however, I got some really great leadership in my life. I had tried to provide the answers on my own, and they were not as solid as the real deal scriptural teachings. I had up until my late 20's/early 30's fine my whole life never even being taught about Gods role in salvation, election, predestination and all of those big deep wells of thought that seems to strangely divide people within the Christian churches across America. When I heard the Bible in context that was historical and deconstructed for years and years by scholars and philosophers whom have come to know Christ by these same big themes, it was then where I was relieved and a weight was lifted off of me and I didn’t have to feel broken. I thank God for that grace in my life!
If Christianity was really the charismatic works based poison that led me, back then into Tantrum Of The Muse, i would sooner believe in nothing. I wouldn’t be where I am today, but i took a different road by the grace of God, I saw how important it was to be teachable, to have accountability, to have people who i can yell and scream at regarding the bibles meaning, and have them patiently give me a rebuttal that was truly satisfying. Good Christian community is priceless. Knowing what i know now, it is astonishing to see so many people call themselves Christians, and have no community, no leadership, no iron sharpening iron, its really sad.
To be honest though, i am still angry, and negative. Not in the way i just explained. More just in terms of our political climate, and how weak so people are cowards, and cannot speak with confidence the things of God, the things of truth, or just the general human stupidity that we seem to have no shortage of. But that's another rant, haha.
I guess you can say, i have a healthy dose of righteous anger, and realism as opposed to empty negativity
Thanks for answering that, I get into negative mindsets and cant get out, so thanks for your insight on that.
Absolutely!!! I am always in negative mindsets. I think its healthy to be in them, as long as its pertaining to wanting things to be better, and wanting to right the wrongs that constantly surround us. I think that type of negativity is realistic. Its definitely not healthy to be negative in an entitled way, where you may feel like you deserve greater things, or you just have a completely unrealistic view of how life works. That kind of negativity is dangerous.
Why did TOTM break up?
We started having trouble around 2001. Jim had been through a nasty divorce, and since he was a bit older than us, and we were young and stupid, we should have slowed down and let him pick himself back up, but we did not. The band was supreme, and we were just getting busy and our albums were on Takehold Records, and touring was beginning, and doors were opening for us, and we worked so hard for it that we just focused on that, but it was not healthy for any of us to cover up drama in our lives, by working and ignoring it.
I don't think i have anything else to add, i said a lot already, and i doubt/hope people will get something out of it or read it. I encourage people to check out the Shrill album and hopefully it will bless people as it has blessed me, being a part of it.
Stephen Mark Sarro Links:
https://touristtrapmedia.bandcamp.com/
https://www.instagram.com/stephenmarksarro/
https://www.facebook.com/unteachers/
https://unteachers.bandcamp.com/
https://www.facebook.com/pg/tantrumofthemuse/about/
Comments
Post a Comment